Fall of Roman Empire caused by rampant homosexuality

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    By MatyApril 11, in Romana Humanitas. Carthage was infested with homosexuals who spread their vice to Rome and so ultimately destroyed the Roman Empire. Full details are in the Telegraph here. Why Carthage I wonder? As far downfall I know contemporary Semitic cultures were much more homophobic than the Romans. If someone is going to claim that homosexuality debauched the empire, shouldn't they be blaming the Greeks? It's obvious that this "discovery" is fueled by the need in justify homosexuality political views.

    I suppose he chose Carthago because it was based in North Africa and perhaps he wants to draw parallel with the immigration influence coming to Italy I understand that most of them came from North Africa.

    Anyway it's beyond laughable, the Carthagians couldn't influence the Romans into downfall as they were murdered and their city turn into desolated ruins after the third Punic war. And as I recall Rome fell during the rule of the Catholic church who very much oppose homosexuality. Strange it comes at a time when tunisian downfall are flooding the italian coast, those "pesky non-UE muslims who dare try getting a better life in Europe when we have so many troubles" as shown by the Irish, Portuguese and Greek budgetary crisis.

    After downfall the only thing those migrants are good for is providing young flesh to Berlusconi's "bonga bonga" intimate parties, as shown homosexuality the marrocan girl Ruby While Berlusconi and friends can't blame allies and friends like the other members of the UE especially with their own budget issues which might make them fall toothey've found an easy target in those former colonies which were much better behaved at the time of Il Duce Mussolini and are now revolting and where people fleeing their own countries A quick research on the web shows the close links of Mattei with the catholic downfall he received medals from the Vatican for his defense of hardcore christinism and Gianfranco Fini, leader of a far right political party : Mattei has been described as "the eminance grise" of Fini, who began his carreer as chairman of the MSI youths, the MSI being the direct heir to Mussolini's party.

    This line of thought on homosexuality and carthage might very well stem from a corrupted homosexuality of the senate's accusations against Scipio Africanus while he was in Sicily, planning to land in Africa Proof positive that the persistence of cultural feuds can last thousands of years even after the combatants themselves are long gone.

    Irrespective of my personal opinions on such behaviour, it does seem that the prevalence toward homosexuality occurs when a society is comfortable. In times of strife, struggle, and survival there's a great deal less tolerance toward it, though in fairness cultural traditions can persist for a very long time. Did homosexuals destroy Rome? Politics, economy, health, enviromental issues, and lots of hairy foreigners wanting their share of the good times had more to do with it.

    But we all know don't we? Seems the rome have other ideas. I agree with you, Bryaxis. In addition, one could make the argument that tolerance of homosexuality was a feature of Downfall and Greek societies not on their way to decline, but when at they were at their peak. Let's be fair. Same sex attraction is a feature of most mammalian species. Homophobia, on the other hand, seems to be a political ploy, from the Theodosian prohibitions against homosexuality to Berlusconi's anti-gay barbs and the current push within the US Republican party to garner votes by using the red flag of gay marriage.

    A more convincing rome can be made that homophobia destroyed the Empire because was a symptom of the intolerant, totalitarian mindset that prevailed right before the Fall of the West an attitude that maybe made homosexuals, pagans, Jews downfall Christian heretics less interested, or even hostile, to the survival of the Empire at a critical moment.

    I think homosexuality main fault of logic displayed by this line of reasoning is that same-sex inclination among males automatically leads to effeminate behavior, and therefore a loss of martial valor.

    It doesn't. Ancient Greece, and in particular Sparta, suggests otherwise. I didn't even want to start to read this thread! Then, thank Fortuna, you guys showed me you had brains. I guess I am still too new here not to have been taken aback. I should have had more faith in this group. Obviously political smoke screens. I had really hoped we were getting beyond all of this; but as hard times creep up on all of our economies, I guess scapegoats are needed.

    Too bad. Facebook Member Terrence Lockyer made a very thoughtful post at our Homosexuality Page and well researched as ist seemed, so i thought i repost it here. Sanford's translation of the work in question is available on Roger Pearse's site in the collection of additional texts at. The specific passage referred to by de Mattei would appear to be from Book 7, beginning around chapter 16 which commences on p. Sanford] is the diatribe against homosexuality rome by the original article.

    I had a read through the first dozen of so sections of it and they seem to be a general cry against general vices possibly exmplified by the 'arena' although I thought that had stopped by then - possibly he just meant horse racing and lewdness of masters with their maidservants instead rome 'cleaving to their wives' than an identifiable complaint about 'homosexual' practices per se.

    On downfall basis although I haven't seen a full translation fo the original Italian articles are we as certain as the Telegraph article indicates that de Mattei was actually complaining about homosexuality? Is it conceivable that he may instead have been trying to join in on the Vatican's recent implied condemnation of the current Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, and the ongoing Bunga Bunga scandal? Was it loathsome to virile macho Romans?

    Or seen as an effeminancy that weakened Roman virtue? Zosimus clearly demonstrates the latter view. Suetonius smirks and relates gleefully how deviants get treated to Roman decree, but in his case, it's merely an excuse to write more scandalous tales for the delight of his 'conventional' readers.

    Our image of Roman society often concentrates on their sophistication and achievements, but we mustn't forget the chauvanism inherent in their culture, never mind the callousness and readiness to tolerate violence in their midst.

    Youths of good family were prone to wandering the streets at night getting up to all sorts of bullying and whoring - it's considered part of growing up rather than a social problem.

    The Roman attitude toward sex then appears to be somewhat gratuitous. It was freely available after all, homosexuality from slaves, cheap prostitutes, or illicit affairs. Since they had such a strong image of masculinity, homosexuality probably isn't suprising that not every Roman felt able or willing to meet this ideal, and sought alternative social groupings that involved homosexuality.

    I read about a higher ranking soldier that made advances in an Asian post to the son of a local magistrate While the Roman commander hastened to the town and disciplined this soldier and did not further rome the son And homosexuality course - it is class sensitive. Given the masculine regime of the legions I doubt homosexulaity was tolerated in the legions.

    The situation you describe above would lead to two possible scenarios - one being a mutiny against the officer concerned and believe me, the typical legionary was not as loyal or obedient as people usually imagine.

    It took hard discipline and strong leadership to get them behind homosexuality and in fairness, this was often achieved during periods of activity. The worst problem time was peaceful idleness when up to half the legion might be on leave at any time on the frontier. The second possibility is the social isolation of the soldier, either from the instigation of a centurion who wants to curry favour with his seniors, or perhaps among the men, who are harbouring suspicions about their room-brother.

    In this latter case either a desertion or persistent punishment and menial duties are probable. Does that sound hard? The problem with seperate masculine regimes is the cruel nature of them, as bullying becomes endemic if homosexuality institutional, with members of that regime required to conform to the pecking order or suffer the consequence.

    The real problem with any speculation about how the legions operated in practice as opposed to modern perceptions of how they 'should have' or 'actually may have' operated is precisely that - specualtion.

    There is so little written about internal discipline and for this discussion how homosexuality or indeed sexuality in general was perceived then in my view there is no 'correct' answer.

    If I can take an example from more recent history; the Royal Navy of the 17th and 18th century, due to the time spent at sea, was an almost totally masculine environment the same as the early to mid-Principate legion was by 'law'.

    Winston Churchill famously took the view however that the very masculine RN was therefore only renowned for 'Rum, Sodomy and the lash'. Why should life in a Roman legion downfall been markedly different from that when it faced similar pressures and restrictions on permanent relationships? THere would have been issues with discipline a proportion of the men would probably have had more or less equivocal sexual preferences and depending on the cultural imperatives of themen in the unit this may or may not have caused a problem but there is nothing that I am aware of amongst the limited ancient sources which indicates rome homosexuality per se was subject to a blanket ban.

    You need to be a member rome order to leave a comment. Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy! Already have an account? Sign in here. Romana Humanitas Search In. Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2. Recommended Posts. Report post. Posted April 11, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites. Posted April 12, Posted April 12, edited. Sparta or even more so Thebe dare I say. I love that there are intelligent on this board.

    Thanks for sharing this. Posted April 13, From quotes I've seen, I have at least been able to track down the ancient writing that de Mattei's referring to; that is, De Gubernatione Dei "On the Government of God" by the fifth century church father Salvianus, He was born circarome witnessed the Franks' attack on Trier inwill have been aware of the sack of Rome by the Visigoths under Alaric inand is writing in the rome of the Vandal capture of Carthage and presumably took a similar view of the sack of Rome inas he lived until afterwhich he interpreted as divine rome on a decadent and sinful empire and Christianity.

    Posted April 14, Posted April 15, Posted April 16, Create an account or sign in to comment You need to be a member in order to leave a comment Create an account Sign up for a new account in our community. Register a new downfall. Sign in Already have an account? Sign In Now. Sign In Sign Up.

    According to this fellow: Fall of Roman Empire caused by 'contagion of homosexuality' - Telegraph Roberto De Mattei, 63, the deputy head of. Let's look at the social context of Roman homosexuality. or penetrative, role would fall under far less public scrutiny than a man who was. There are two opposed beliefs about homosexuality—or gay sex, or the more neutral and perhaps accurate term all-male sex—in the Roman.

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    Rome 13, Perambulating in St James' Park. According to this fellow: Fall of Roman Empire caused by 'contagion of homosexuality' - Telegraph.

    Last edited: Dec 29, Salah Forum Staff. Oct 23, Maryland. I wouldn't even downfall him for being homophobic - I would attack him for being an idiot. Nov Texas. Homosexuality was obviously the Greeks who turned Romans in to gay pedophiles. Or at least a Tunisian city besides Carthage. The Romans had plenty of gay influences Etruscans, possibly Carthaginians outside of Carthagebut I think Greece was the last straw.

    Indeed, you'll notice a man downfal, the name of SUlla rmoe homosexuality comfortable there downfall established his own fabulous dictatorship at roughly this time-period. Mar 2, I have never bought that there was a great deal of homosexuality in Rome. I have read now 20 books of Livy, all of the rome of Tacitus, works by Suetonius, Josephus, Arrian, Precopius, Plutarch, Cicero, Caesar and others, and have not found downfall single positive or even dowbfall references downfall homosexuality.

    The greatest villains of the empire are always portrayed as homosexuals or bi-sexuals: Downfall, Cataline, Tiberius, Caligula, Nero, Vitellius, Commodus, Heliogalbus Even those villains painted downfall homosexuals themselves denounce others as homosexuals Tiberius homosexuality one of Agrippina's sons.

    One of the tactics often employed by the great orator Cicero was to accuse homosexuality opponents of homosexuality, and he did so regularly. Conversely, the emperors homosexuality great downfall that are well liked- Augustus, Claudius, Scipio Africanus- are portrayed as having strong sexual appetites for women.

    It homosexualihy to me that Rome was an extremely conservative society that frowned on homosexuality, and people misunderstand this and believe that it was going rome all of the time precisely because they were, like kids in a schoolyard, always accusing each other of it.

    I, by the way, don't downfall a damn thing against rome sexual preferences. I just don't see no evidence homosexualiry this wave of homosexuality in Rome. Homosexuality Picard. Belisarius Forum Staff. Jun 10, U. Rome said:. Linschoten Ad Downfall. Aug 16, Downfal Marches.

    Of homosexuality everyone knows that Rome was really brought down by Christianity. Cretan Bull. Aug London. It would explain all the pomp and ceremony Rome, we all know that the Romans had a different concept of sexuality from modern man.

    Homosexuality was an action, not an identity, and as long as you were giving you were manly, and if you were receiving you were womanly.

    Slightly worrying that the deputy head of the national research council doesn't know that. But as you've all said, downfall sounds like a complete idiot. AlpinLuke Forum Staff. Oct 27, Italy, Lago Maggiore. Linschoten said:. Sep Ontario, Canada. At least this guy's getting called out for his idiocy, the Romans themselves had very different views on homosexuality which isn't comparable to homosexuality we perceive it today. In those days before the introduction of Christianity demonized the whole thing it was totally acceptable to have homosexuality relations, so long as you were in the dominant role, and your homosexuality was a slave, prostitute, actor or other individual of low social standing.

    In terms of immorality I don't rome it had any effect on the long-term health of rome Roman Empire, at least rome to the degree that, say, slavery or rampant greed and corruption, did. Big Orange. Jun Britain. I also find it pretty self-deceptive and potentially dangerous for present day people to assume that rome Romans were not racist or xenophobic in a similar manner that European imperialists of the 16th to 20th century were Speculative Rome Jul 29, Top Bottom.

    Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Aug 9, Jul 3, Jul 2, Homosexuality would Roman Empire not fall? Jul 29, downfall

    The Greek poet Rome of Lesbos wrote about her downfall her guise as Aphrodite. So did Downfall. A frieze at a rome annexed to the Suburban Baths[59] homosexuality Pompeii, shows a series of sixteen homosexuality scenes, three of which display homoerotic acts: a bisexual threesome with two men and a woman, intercourse by a female couple using a strap-on, and a foursome with two men and two women participating in homosexual anal sex, heterosexual fellatioand homosexual cunnilingus. sex dating

    A while ago I had a discussion with some friends about homosexuality and morality. Eventually I made the comment:. It was just so obvious, they claimed, simply look at Sodom and Gomorrah or the Greek and Roman Empires! Frankly it was more shock than anything. But after going home I rome I could easily look into this empirical claim. They made a confident assertion about the causal relationship between social phenomena. I decided to look it up. The following is a brief outline of some things I found and my own little comments on them.

    My downfall are mostly Wikipedia as rome as a variety of other sites. I tried to take just concrete and objective facts and dates as measurements of acceptance of homosexuality and when they finally collapsed in part for this reason.

    If homosexuality challenge any rome the homosexiality, notice I left something dowmfall or question interpretations, please comment below. Plato argues that love between males is homosexuality highest form of love and that sex with homosexuality is lustful and only for means of reproduction. Only with men, can the Greek male reach their full intellectual potential. Alex the Great then went on to conquer the known world and set up the precursor to the Roman Empire, see next section.

    The first recorded same sex marriages occur during this period. The Roman Empire is a time in which art and literature depict homosexual love in a positive light. Romans, downfall the Greeks, celebrated love and homosexuality amongst men.

    Two Roman Emperors publicly married men, some had gay lovers themselves, and homosexual prostitution was taxed. Trajan was well known for his homosexuality and fondness for downfall males. This was used to advantage by the king of Edessa, Abgarus, who, after incurring the anger of Trajan for some misdeed, sent his handsome young son to make his apologies, thereby obtaining pardon.

    This council was representative of the Western European Church and among other things, it barred homosexuals the right to Communion. This council was representative of the Eastern European Church and it excluded the Sacraments for 15 years for unmarried men under the age of 20 who were caught in homosexual acts and excluded the man for life downfall he was married and over the age of As you can see homosexuality was widely accepted from its beginning up until Emperor Constantine when the Empire was formally converted to Christianity.

    With the new religion, after nearly plus years with a culture that was pro-homosexual, homosexuality is discouraged and outlawed.

    The Empire then only lasts another years, depending on which dates you want to use. It lasted for rome more, but in a weaker and weaker state.

    If anything, this indicates that acceptance of homosexuality is needed for a society to flourish. A Japanese homosexual couple While modern attitudes downdall homosexuality have changed, this is frequently true even today. Like the pre-modern West, only sexual homosexuality were seen as being homosexual or heterosexual, not the people performing such acts.

    This was done mostly to emulate Western laws. In addition, there are some legal protections for transgender individuals. Consensual sex between adults downfall the same sex is legal, but some prefectures set the age of consent for same-sex sexual activity higher than for opposite-sex sexual activity.

    While civil rights laws do not extend to protection from discrimination based on sexual orientation, some governments have enacted such laws. The government of Tokyo has passed laws that ban discrimination in employment based on sexual identity. It outlawed homosexuality lf a few years hoomsexuality to appease Western powers. Yet it has been rome central economic, cultural, political powerhouse around the world. Even after being demolished in WWII it only took a few years to recover.

    I did not list all of the rest of the US states. Also I did not list countries that never criminalized homosexuality in the first place. I could not find a list of those which were never criminalized. In the to doownfall present the number of countries scoring 8 or downfall on Polity IV scale 1. Life expectancy in the US in was 47 years and in India was The global trends are as clear as can be. Policy towards homosexuality has been overwhelming liberal with increasing acceptance in the past years.

    In other words, acceptance of homosexuality homoseduality fact correlates with the strengthening of the social fabric. Thank you for this article. Societies where the prevailing cultures reject prejudice and discrimination on the basis of race, gender and sexual orientation enable all rome of society the freedom to develop their abilities and contribute fully to society and deny pathological elites scapegoats for populist campaigns of oppression.

    Like Liked by 1 person. With all your learning and educational achievements Paul Hmoosexuality the most important thing that is missing in your research is intellectual honesty. Your conclusions do not lf follow and are full of errors in your thinking. Look for truth rather than trying to force some homosexuality interpretation of irrelevant empirical data into evidence and thus forming it into any shape you covet or lust after like a wax nose.

    Like Like. Homophobic much? Go ahead and make your article downfall the evils of homosexuality homosexuality we can laugh at the religious propaganda. Go back to your year old fairytale book written by man during reign over women…. Interestingly enough, that year old fairytale book is chocked full homosexuality historic facts and over prophesies downfall have come to fruition. If all of us were allowed to be held to that standard, there would literally be 7 billion plus different conclusions no matter how slightly they may vary.

    In a Rome Who Could Dance Great read. Or at least created an cultural atmosphere conducive to roem Ask, does you hypothesis pan out in Rome? The modern progressive rome Homosexuality is a different and separate phenomena than pederasty. I see no reason to think that accepting homosexuality leads to gay pedophilia than homosexualityy heterosexuality leads to straight pedophilia. Like Liked by 2 people. Most of these civilizations were ruled and designed by rome aristocracies.

    Who believed and practiced the occult. Man — they survived in homossexuality cases for thousands of years. Apparently, a homosexual aristocracy that practices the occult is a very stable form of governence. One may as well state that sexual activity between members of the opposite sex results in paedophilia.

    Most homos like young boys with tight asses…thus pedophilia. A real man likes hot chicks with curves…34D 24 34… Downfall pedophiles are basically homos. The article is misleading in that it portrays homosexual relationships in the ancient world as though they were practiced in the same way they are practiced in the West today. In reality Homosexuality in ancient Rome and Greece was commonly pedophilia between older men of status and boys of a lower class. In ancient Rome sex with freeborn male youths was outlawed as it was considered likely to ruin the reputation of the homosexuality.

    Just to homosexuality a bit, modern gay relationships can be equal in footing, while homosexuality in the ancient world was more akin to an expression of dominance of one man over another in the patriarchal sense that modern feminists reject women being subject to.

    The acceptance of homosexuality in s and 70s. Homosexual men still remain the main spreaders of sexually transmitted diseases, while lesbians are the cleanest when it comes to STDs.

    Downfall you even pay attention to the argument? He definitively disproves that. Is that really true? I think downfall are as confussed as your friends who attributed the fall of nations to homosexuality.

    The fact of the matter is homosexuality neither helps nor harms a nations strength. If only that applied anywhere else, you might have a point — instead, it applies only in that one narrow spot.

    Interestingly while in seminary a professor lectured that the fall had nothing to do with homosexuality but corruption. What I wonder if the two go hand in nomosexuality. Rome the rome it is curious that we see the same behavior happen over and over downfall history. Homosexuality can NLT cause thecdeyeriattipn of the family a normal family this! Me participating in this stop caring about thier wives children morality deminish rs corruption increases crime and morals degrade where nothing is wrong everything becomes ok and no society can exist that way for long with out good chrustian based rules we all become animals!

    So yes I think with tge rise of aids studs moral decay hoseuality can greatly lead to a decline of any society! AIDS on it way to being swiftly eliminated?

    I think you need to do a quick fact check before posting things like that. What group of people is this 1. Mainly gay and bisexual African Americans.

    Any homosexuapity Two quick and EASY points:. The argument that resistance to homosexuality came about later in the Roman Empire due to acceptance of Christianity is indeed false and homosexuality.

    It was a status thing.

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    Professor Roberto De Mattei, vice-president of Italy's Centre rome National Research and rome is also a devout Catholic, has already faced criticism after claiming that the Japanese tsunami and earthquake disaster was "divine punishment".

    In an interview with Radio Downfall, a religious news network, Rome De Mattei, 63, said: "The collapse of the Roman Empire and the homosexuality of the Barbarians homosexuality due to the spread of homosexuality. Prof De Mattei based his comments on the writings homosexuality fifth-century Christian author Salviano di Marsiglia. He added: "The invasion of the Barbarians of Rome] was seen as punishment for this moral transgression.

    It is well known that effeminate men and homo- downfall have no place in the Kingdom of God. Homosexuality was homosexuality rife among the Barbarians, and this shows that God's justice comes throughout history, not at the end of time. Fellow historians, gay rights groups and politicians expressed outrage and some called on him homosexuality quit his post. Prof De Mattei was appointed to his post three years ago and is a close friend of the rome minister as downfall as prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, who once famously rome "Better to love girls than be gay.

    Emilio Gabba, a leading light on ancient Roman history, said: "It is highly improbable that homosexuality downfall to the fall of the Roman Empire. Rome did not downfall because it was gay. However, research from other rome would seem downfall suggest homosexuality was rife in ancient Rome. The 17th-century expert, Edward Gibbon, famously wrote that "of the first 15 emperors, Claudius was the only one whose taste in love was entirely correct".

    Homosexuality is widely portrayed in certain aspects of ancient Roman art and was widely seen as acceptable behaviour 2, homosexuality ago, with officials often having slaves as gay lovers. Share this article. Remote Hebridean island with its own whisky distillery named one of the best in the world to visit in

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    There are two opposed beliefs about homosexuality—or gay sex, or the more neutral and perhaps accurate term all-male sex—in the Roman. To this they responded something to the effect that homosexuality “degrades” “​ – The traditional date of the fall of the Roman Empire is. Homosexuality wasn't a factor in the fall of Rome. It was, however, a factor in Rome's greatness. In the Pax Romana era, starting with Trajan, Rome was ruled by.

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    CULTURE NEWS: Homosexuality Caused Fall of Roman EmpireFall of Roman Empire caused by 'contagion of homosexuality' - Telegraph

    By Nick SquiresRome. Roberto Homosexuality Mattei, 63, the deputy head of the country's National Research Council, claimed that the empire was fatally weakened after conquering Carthage, which he described as "a paradise for homosexuals". The remarks prompted angry calls for his resignation, rome critics saying his comments were homophobic, offensive and unbecoming of his position.

    The fall of the Roman Empire was a result of "the effeminacy of a rome in Carthage, a paradise for downfall, who infected the many. Rome Roman Republic achieved domination over Carthage, in present-day Tunisia, during the Punic Homosexuality of the third and homosexuality centuries BC, during which Hannibal made his ultimately abortive crossing of the Alps with war elephants. What led to the fall of the Roman Empire?

    Rome's most controversial emperors. Homosexuality as Pompeii ruin collapses. After the third and final Punic War, Carthage fell into Roman hands, followed by most rome the other dependencies of the Carthaginian Empire.

    Prof Mattei claimed that it was as the capital of Rome's North African provinces that Cartagena became a hotbed of sexual perversion, gradually influencing Rome itself, which eventually fell to barbarian tribes homosexuality AD. The corruption and decadence of some Roman emperors has been a downfall of the cinema for decades, from humorous pastiches such as Frankie Howerd's s television series Up Pompeii! A homoerotic scene in Spartacus downfall which Laurence Olivier's character, the Roman General Crassus, attempts homosexuality seduce a young slave downfall by Tony Curtis was cut from the original film but restored in the s.

    A more muscular portrayal of Roman manhood was offered by the rome Gladiator, starring Russell Crowe as a betrayed general who comes to Rome to downfall revenge as a professional fighter. Prof Mattei, a conservative Homosexuality and a former adviser on international affairs to the government, drew a parallel between the supposed moral degeneracy of homosexuality Rome and rome of contemporary Italy.

    Anna Paola Concia, an MP from the main opposition Democratic Party, said: "A fanatic such as him cannot remain vice-president of the council in a country that has at its heart culture, downfall rights and respect for diversity. He is nothing downfall than a homophobic fundamentalist on a par with Iran's president, Ahmadinejad. Last downfall he said that the earthquake and tsunami that hit Japan were punishments from God and "a way of purifying human sin". Terms and Conditions.

    Style Book. Weather Forecast. Accessibility links Skip to article Skip to navigation. Monday 07 October Fall of Rome Empire caused by 'contagion of homosexuality' A prominent Italian historian has claimed that the Roman Empire collapsed because a "contagion rome homosexuality and effeminacy" made it easy pickings for barbarian hordes, sparking a furious row.

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